Interview with Dr. Charles Campisi

Interview

Bryan Haggerty: Prior to your career in academia, you had extensive experience working for professional sports teams in the industry. When did you first decide that you wanted to work in sports, and how did you get your first big break in the industry?

Charles Campisi: I knew I wanted to work in sports as I was going off to college. I had worked at an athletics club, a country club, near my house as a staff member. I knew I wanted to get into that space in the industry working in sports in some capacity. The first big break I got was while taking a public relations class. I started working at the Carrier Dome my freshman year at Syracuse serving alcohol and concessions, but I knew I didn’t want to work in food and beverage. In my PR class my sophomore year, I had to interview someone who worked in media relations in the industry that I wanted to work in. I was a big Bills fan, so I reached out to the director of public relations for the Buffalo Bills. He did an interview with me talking about his career and his background and everything, and I wrote a paper.

When I got the paper back, I sent it over to him once I made the corrections, and sent a copy of my resume with a note that said, “Hey, if you need an intern at any point let me know.” He reached back out and said their internship role was filled for the coming season, but there was another department that was looking for an intern – in merchandising – and he wanted to know if I would I be interested in that role. And I said, “Of course I would.” He forwarded my resume along, and then one thing led to another and I ended up getting that internship for the summer going into and during fall of my junior year.

I interned there all summer, and then during the fall I set up all of my classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Tuesdays,I went to class all day. Wednesdays, I would do all of my homework. Thursdays, I would again be in class all day. Thursday nights, I would drive back to Buffalo and I would work every Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Monday nights, I’d drive back to Syracuse. So that was my first real break in terms of working in sports. 

BH: Wow. It sounds like you really make the most of your time and this opportunity, even while you were still in college full-time.

CC: Yea and I actually make my students do that same assignment – that led to my first big break – where they have to reach out to somebody in industry because I’m like, “Hey, it helped launch my career, it might help launch yours as well.”

BH: I know that it’s a common refrain in the sports industry that both networking and experiential learning are so important. How much would you credit the opportunities you’ve had later in life with that first opportunity?

CC: I think it’s huge. The networking piece is key, but I would say that job got me started which allowed me to establish networks later on. When I had moved down to Miami, they didn’t know the people at the Bills, but they were able to see on my resume that I had worked with an NFL franchise. When I studied abroad I worked with a basketball team over in London as well. The fact that they were able to see that I had experience in the industry I think was something that allowed me to take advantage of that next opportunity.

The networking piece also played a big role later in my career when I made the move from the Dolphins to the Buccaneers networking definitely played a big role. [It was also a factor when I moved] from the Hurricanes to the Dolphins because my boss at the Hurricanes knew the person who was hiring from the Dolphins, and the person I worked for at the Dolphins knew the person who was hiring for the role at the Buccaneers. So from a networking standpoint it plays a really big part.

They want to see that you are willing to get experience in the industry, and then as you’re moving forward, having those connections and people that can vouch for you in any industry is important. [Even though it would seem like sports is a big industry, it is actually rather small] when you look at it compared to global companies like Microsoft or Google or something like that. 

Having those people that’ll vouch for you from a networking standpoint – it’s not just that they know you, it’s how they know you. Having an acquaintance with somebody versus working with them and having them be able to vouch for the quality of your work [are two very different things] – [it] is a key element. But I think that definitely plays a role, for every student or young person that is looking for that next step to have a network. I always tell people, “Who you know gets you in the door, what you know gets you up the ladder.” That tends to be what I tell our students all the time.

BH: I think that’s great advice. So you’ve mentioned several different professional organizations so far, and I’ve heard that you even have a championship ring from one of those stints. Can you tell me about some of the different roles that you’ve had as you went between organizations?

CC: Yes, I’ve had a varied career. A lot of folks will stay in one department. I like having that broad-based experience because it allows me to talk about a lot of different things. I started in food and beverage and maintenance at the country club level. Maintaining clay tennis courts, cleaning racquetball courts, cleaning restrooms, and folding towels. Then I moved into merchandising and concessions.

When I was with the Bills doing merchandising, mail order was still a thing, so we actually mailed out a bunch of catalogues. We had to label with labels that you get off of a printer over 150,000 catalogues and mail them out, so it was not exciting work.

I moved into sports information with the (University of Miami) Hurricanes, before taking a role in community relations with the Dolphins. I had a dual-role in community relations and media relations with the Buccaneers. I worked with the Minnesota Twins English language and cultural coordinator down in the Dominican Republic. Then I came back and was a property manager and student services manager at the IMG Academy in Bradenton, FL. So a lot of different and varied experiences and a lot of fun. A lot of cool roles, cool opportunities. 

The opportunity to have a Super Bowl ring from Super Bowl 37 (XXXVII), the Buccaneers first Super Bowl, was a nice little perk thrown in there. And having a majority of my career take place in the state of Florida, where the weather is generally nice for games and events, was pretty beneficial as well. A December game in Tampa is a lot more enjoyable than a December game here in Cleveland. So a lot of different experiences. 

I think I have the ability to problem solve, and I think I have the ability to communicate with people pretty well. As long as you can do those things, they can teach you the technical skills of whatever the role may be, if you can master those two.

BH: That’s all good advice. In switching between so many different departments and with different organizations, can you give us an idea of how you managed to keep climbing the ladder? Were you always looking for the next opportunity – and always applying for new roles – or were the opportunities kind of finding you? Can you provide some insight into that?

CC: I was just looking for something different. Sometimes it was maybe I was looking for some increased responsibilities, so I would seek out those specific opportunities. So that was some of the transition from the (University of Miami) Hurricanes to the Dolphins to the Buccaneers. Just looking for new roles and new opportunities to take on more responsibility. And then after the Buccaneers, I kind of realized that I did want to pursue [a career in education], so I knew I had to go back and get my PhD [at some point]. While I was with the Twins – which was a one year role – that also coincided with my dissertation research. 

That spawned the move from there to the IMG Academy because I knew that my role with the Twins was ending, so I needed to find that next opportunity, which happened to be at the IMG Academy once we had moved back to Florida. My wife is a native Floridian, so living in Minnesota while I was in the Dominican was not exactly where she wanted to be, so she moved back to Florida. 

[Generally speaking], I think it’s a little bit of both [looking for increased responsibilities and seeking out specific opportunities]. Then it was a little bit of circumstance in terms of going back and getting the PhD, taking an opportunity for my dissertation research and a job that I knew had a limited time frame, and then looking for those next opportunities. 

To be honest, teams don’t always have the greatest level of loyalty. So I encourage folks to make sure you’re looking for those opportunities where you can learn and you can grow. Everybody wants that, right? You want to take that new responsibility, you want to take that new challenge. I think that’s part of the fun. If there’s those folks above you that you know are not necessarily going anywhere, you’re going to have to go to a different organization to achieve that.

BH: SportsDegreesOnline.org features guides which help young people navigate situations where they’re transitioning from college to the professional world, or advising them on how to get the most out of an internship. One piece of advice for young people is while you are looking for an internship, the most important thing is to just focus on getting your foot in the door somewhere to prove yourself, rather than worry about what your title or your role will be. Do you think that’s the best advice for young people today, that they should take a job that they might not be so in love with just to get that experience?

CC: It depends. I think if it’s an internship and you’re a student, yes. Or if it’s a department that you would want to be in. A lot of people say, “Well just take that ticket sales role because you can pivot to something else.” Those transitions do happen, but they don’t happen all the time. So I would advise against taking a full-time job in a department that you wouldn’t be happy working in long term. If you know you don’t want to work in ticket sales, or you know you don’t want to work in media relations, or you know you don’t want to work in events management, don’t take a job in those departments. Because [if you don’t want to be there], your performance isn’t going to be where it needs to be for you to [make a good impression on those around you] if it’s not where you want to be. If it’s maybe that you want to pursue a career in marketing and there’s a job in promotions, [that is a different story because] those are closely related areas. 

From a collegiate athletic standpoint, maybe you want to move into a development role, and there are no positions open, but there is a sales role position open. Those areas have similar responsibilities and relationships. So I think as long as it’s closely tied to a direction you want to be in, and it’s a job you’re willing to put time and effort and energy into, and you’re not going to hate life for the 60 hours a week minimum that you’re putting in in this role, I think that’s okay. I wouldn’t advise it if it’s like, “Hey I want to be player personnel director, and I’m going to take a job as a customer service representative.” You’re not going to get there. There are stories of people that have made the transitions – and I even know a couple of them – but they are extremely rare. It’s more often that those people just leave the industry altogether because they’ll have had experience that is not beneficial for them because they took a job that they didn’t want to take in the first place. So it might take you a little longer to find the role that you’re looking for, but try to make sure that it’s at least in a realm of options that you would be happy with performing.

BH: Now another question in something that’s debated at times is unpaid internships. What is your stance on unpaid internships? Should people worry that they’re going to be taken advantage of in those situations, or is the experience potentially valuable enough further down the road in terms of what it could lead to that it’s worth taking unpaid internships?

CC:  I hate unpaid internships just because they’re not paid. I think everybody should be paid for their labor. That’s my bias I guess, but they can be valuable. Obviously there is a financial component to unpaid internships, in that, some folks can’t afford to take an unpaid internship. I think it’s actually worse for the organization to offer an unpaid internship because you’re limiting the talent pool that you could potentially recruit from. 

That doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re invaluable to the students. They can be extremely valuable to the student. There are some unpaid internships that you’re going to get a great experience. They’re not going to take advantage of you. They’re going to provide great mentorship. It’s incumbent upon people like myself and other faculty members in our areas to work with students who have taken roles at organizations that are unpaid to make sure that they’re getting and having a positive experience at that internship. 

And then if there is a negative experience, to have conversations with those students, and have conversations with the folks that are executing [the internship] about why that experience wasn’t what it could have been. Then maybe even not recommend that internship or work with that organization to try and modify that to make sure that it is beneficial to all parties. So I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all there. I think it’s a case where they can be great, but they need to be monitored.

[The same is true] for paid internships, too. There could be paid internships where people are trying to take advantage of students as well. Just because you’re being compensated, doesn’t mean you’re getting the appropriate level of mentorship and professional instruction that you should be getting at an internship. You’re not a slave laborer only doing grunt work. There needs to be a learning component behind it as well.

BH: Thank you for all of that insight. Pivoting now to when you shifted to academia. You are now the Sport Management Department Chair at Baldwin Wallace University. Your university offers an incredible array of programs ranging from bachelors, masters, sport management certificate program, and a new Sport Management MBA program. Please talk a bit about how you incorporated your extensive experience in the sports industry into the programs at Baldwin Wallace.

CC: Part of it is making sure you’re constantly staying in touch [with the current skills and responsibilities that teams are looking for in their new hires]. One of the things is working with those organizations where your students are doing internships and finding out where our students aren’t measuring up. What are some of the skills that are newer to the organizations or newer to roles that students may take? 

So [as an example] we [recently] added an analytics and data visualization class to our undergraduate curriculum because students needed [to understand how analytics are communicated]. They’re not [learning how to] write algorithms, but they’re learning what analytics can do. How to interpret things so you know what is a P value, what is a Z score, and what does that mean? Then learning how to present data in a visual format to move decision making. How do I present this data to support our argument? Does this data support our argument? How do I say it either does or doesn’t in a presentation? Then demonstrate that with some visual components – [we introduced this program] because [some of the companies we work with came to us and said], “Hey, we really would love it if students had a little more of this.” 

Then we also added a technology class – a sport technology class, specifically – to our undergraduate curriculum that includes audio and video creation and editing, graphics creating and editing, creating GIFs and social media content, and these types of things. Because there are a ton of those roles available now, and [we felt that] there wasn’t really a place in our curriculum where students could focus on [building those skills]. And when you’re looking at marketing – including social media roles – you need to have those skills, so we added that component to our curriculum.

With the creation of our new Sport Management MBA, we worked with some outside parties and  brought some folks [industry experts] together for some focus groups and discussions about [the different types of deliverables that our graduates should be prepared to produce]. Then we crafted classes around those major focus areas, knowing that the core MBA classes that they were going to take are going to provide that business background for them. 

[Next,] we needed to enhance the sports business background within those specific sport management [course components] within the MBA. That was where those partnerships came in which we have established between the academic institution and [organizations where our students could soon ] be working with on a day to day basis, [should they get hired] when they graduate [into the professional] world. [Our partners] have that active input and we are able to craft those classes to meet the needs of [their] organizations. When [students graduate Baldwin Wallace] with a [degree in sport management – whether it be a bachelor’s, master’s, or our MBA program], they are well prepared to take on [any] role [at any] organization.

BH: There are so many sport management programs out there to choose from at every level, it’s probably overwhelming for prospective students just beginning the search of which program might be the best for them. You’ve already explained about how your curriculums prepare students to produce specifically deliverables that potential employers will value when they graduate. What are some other factors that students should keep in mind as they’re trying to choose a program?

CC: Number one: faculty who are continually engaged in the industry. I worked in media relations in the early 2000s. Facebook was barely a thing, MySpace was still hot, and there was no Twitter or Instagram or anything like that. That’s why we added our technology class because our media relations class focuses more on the generable deliverables of creating content, not necessarily designing the content. There’s a difference there. So you want faculty that recognizes that the world evolves, that things change.

Number 2: What opportunities are available at that program? Not only on campus to get engaged with the athletics department – I think that’s a given that any college or university should offer opportunities for students to engage with their own athletics department – but what opportunities are available beyond that that the institution helps provide for you? Things like other partnerships [including] to internships with certain organizations. Are there experiential learning opportunities? We’ve taken students to the SuperBowl for the last nine years. We go to the college football playoff championship games, or down to the Formula 1 race in Austin, Texas and the one down in Miami. We go to the Kentucky Derby. The NBA All-Star game is going to be here in Cleveland, and while that’s not every year, we know that we can take advantage of that opportunity. When the NFL draft was here this past spring, we had 60 students who took advantage of that opportunity. We partner with the Pro Football Hall of Fame both at their enshrinement week activities here in Canton, Ohio, and their activation at the Super Bowl.

[Essentially], what [does the program have to offer outside of the] classroom? Yes, you need to get the theory, but you also need to put those theories you’re learning in the classroom into practice. If you’re not doing that while you’re at school, what’s your resume going to look like so an organization is going to want to hire you when you graduate? That’s the type of thing students should be looking for: What is offered above and beyond the opportunities that should be readily available on campus at any sport management program? What’s that next level that they’re going to be able to take me to? That’s what I think is a separator for [our programs at Baldwin Wallace], really. I think we offer a great number of opportunities beyond the classroom and beyond our university athletics department to our students.

BH: Prospective students out there will surely be looking at flashy brochures and websites for different. How can they discern which programs have legitimate outside the classroom learning opportunities and which ones really don’t?

CC: I think you have to ask [the right questions]. You’ve got to meet with or engage with a faculty member and find out: Was this [experience I see in the promotional materials] a one-off? [About the pictures you are seeing, ask “Did you happen to do this thing because it happened to be in your area, or are these activities you engage in on a regular basis?” Ask them what their students are doing, what types of internships they’re getting, and what are some of the opportunities above and beyond. Just don’t be afraid to ask, [because] it’s your education. 

Ask for specific opportunities that they’ve coordinated for their students. Ask what their sport management club or their sport management association – whatever [it may be called at your university] – has provided for their students. Because we can say, “Hey, we’ve been to the last nine Super Bowls. That’s a fact. We can show you pictures. We can demonstrate that. It’s one of those things: Don’t be afraid to ask about what the opportunities are at that institution.

Don’t be afraid to reach out to a faculty member in that department, and if they can’t give you some concrete examples, or if it’s just, “We had one student do an internship here one time.” In 2019, we had 17 students doing internships with the Cleveland Indians. Obviously in 2020, we didn’t have any because there wasn’t really anything to do [due to the pandemic]. But I know we have at least ten this year, [and perhaps even more when I get the final] numbers here in a couple weeks. So ask those types of questions in terms of: What are those opportunities that you are providing? Be direct about it. Don’t be afraid to ask hard questions of faculty members. It’s your education that you’re looking out for, the experience that you want to get out of college. Can that institution provide it for you?

BH: Now I would like to give you a chance to sell everyone on the Cleveland area – and Ohio generally – as the best place to study sport management. You mentioned the connections with the Indians and events like the all-star game which come through town sometimes. Please tell us more about why Ohio is a good place to get your start in sport management?

CC: I think when you’re looking at where we’re located, we’re 15 minutes from downtown Cleveland. [The nice thing about small school athletic departments is] that our events don’t happen without student engagement. When I was at the University of Miami in Florida, our sports information department had as many full-time staff members – in that one department – as we have full-time non-coaches in our entire athletic department here at Baldwin Wallace. So if you want to get involved, you can get involved here. [Let’s say] you want to run our video board here – guess what? It uses the same software as the video board that the Cavs, the Browns, and the Indians use. I can train you [how to operate] that. I’ve got the key to the press box, I’ll walk you up and train you myself. You want to write game stories for our website? You want to do stats? You want to do PA announcing? You want to do broadcasting or webcasting for our sports? Whatever you want to do, you can do it here on campus. 

Then the opportunities off-campus – the Browns training facility is a block and a half from the edge of our campus, so you essentially have access to the Browns 24/7. The Cavs, Indians, and Monsters, which are the minor league hockey team here, they’re 15 minutes away downtown. You have students constantly doing internships and other events with those organizations. The MAC, or the Mid-American Conference, has their headquarters in downtown Cleveland. NACDA, which is the National Association for Collegiate Directors of Athletics, their headquarters are in Westlake which is about 20 minutes from here. IMG has a headquarters here in Cleveland. So when you’re looking for those other opportunities that exist – and I didn’t even mention one of the organizations that helps bring those all-star games and those other events here to Cleveland, the Greater Cleveland Sports Commission. They’re constantly bringing big events here to Cleveland. 

Just in the past few years we’ve had the MLB all-Star Game, we’ve had the NFL draft, we’re having the NBA ALL-Star Games. USA Triathlon has held their national championships here in Cleveland. We’ve had the Senior Games here. We had the Transplant Games. We’ve had the Gay Games here in Cleveland. So all of those activities kind of broaden your scope of what the sports industry is. We’ve had two tennis tournaments that are here in Cleveland now – professional tennis tournaments. The Pro Football Hall of Fame is about 40 minutes away. Firestone Country Club, hosts a Senior PGA Tour event here in Cleveland. So you have all of those opportunities to engage with whatever sport, whatever activity you want. It’s a nice hub of activity.

BH: That is impressive I must say. There is clearly a lot going on in Cleveland..

CC: And we have connections to all of those organizations, and a lot of those folks from a lot of those organizations actually come in as adjunct faculty members program as well. So you’re not only engaged with them from a professional standpoint, but you’re engaged with them from an academic standpoint as well.

BH: And for what it’s worth, I used to work for a company based outside of Cleveland, I’ve been three many, many times, and I can say that on top of everything you said, the people of Ohio are just salt of the earth. I have found that Ohioans are very courteous, welcoming people, and I think that’s got to be worth something, too.

CC: Oh yeah. My wife’s from Florida and we’ve had opportunities to move back and she says, “You know what? I love it here in Cleveland.” And that’s what she cites. The people are so nice and people underestimate the Cleveland food scene as well. You want some cool, innovative food? There are some, I mean between Rocco’s and Simon’s, we’ve got some really great food here. And some great breweries, some elite level breweries are here in Cleveland if that’s something that you might be interested in. Not necessarily as a freshman, but as a junior or senior, once you’re of age. There are some great opportunities in general in the Cleveland area. It’s a great place to grow up and live. I live two blocks from campus because I just love the area.

BH: It’s no secret that finding a career in sports is more competitive than many other fields. What’s one thing you wish you knew before you launched your career? And what other advice do you have for soon to be graduates who are about to start their professional journey in sports?

CC: I guess the one thing I wish I knew – which I learned early on – was that you don’t have to stay in one lane the entire time, but you have to make sure you’re excelling in what your primary responsibilities are. Be willing to – and this goes for any field, any industry – go that extra mile. Do the little things. Make people feel welcome. I don’t care what your goal is in an organization, you’re largely a customer service person. 

Whether it’s ticketing, marketing, corporate partnerships, or media relations, you always have outside individuals that you’re dealing with. Make those people feel good about working with you. If you can do that, if you can make them happy, then they’ll go above and beyond for you. They’ll make your events better. They might use your quote a little more prominently in the story than they would another quote. Or they might be willing to spend a little more for that corporate partnership. Or they’ll be willing to work with you on placement of an advertisement around the stadium. So if you can amp that piece up, understanding that we are generally in customer service type roles. The customer may be different across the platforms, but make those people feel good about working with you. I think that’s a key piece.

I think for the soon-to-be graduates looking for that job, I mentioned a little earlier, don’t take a job that you wouldn’t be comfortable staying in for an extended period of time. There’s a fine line between being patient and taking that next step. Don’t rush yourself through the process, but also have an understanding of when you feel you need to move to the next level and be willing to have conversations with people. 

During some of my roles, I had conversations with people about “Hey is there an opportunity for me here to expand my role, if not, would you support me in looking for an opportunity where I can do that?” Luckily, I had some great people that I worked for and they were always willing to support me as I looked for a role that would allow me to take on more responsibility even if that role was not within the organization I was presently in. 

And also you don’t have to jump at the first job. [Keep in mind] that taking an internship even after you graduate isn’t the end of the world. That actually is going to allow you [to fully commit to a role in a way that you haven’t been able to with prior opportunities]. You might have had some internships while you were an undergrad or graduate school, but you were trying to balance work and school. This opportunity may allow you to just fully commit to a role which may [allow you to] elevate your performance because this is priority number one now. [You are no longer] mixing priorities. 

So be willing to take that role or even take a step back sometimes if you’re in an organization. Some organizations are different from others, and not every organization is right for you. Move out of an organization that you don’t feel is treating you as well as you need to be treated. Lateral moves are okay. If you move from a coordinator role to a coordinator role in different organizations, that’s okay. It’s not the end of the world. There are [some] folks that are general managers before they’re 30. Those folks are few and far between. It takes most folks a while to climb that ladder. Don’t feel like you have to race against anybody else. Everybody’s timeline is a little different. Be patient, but there’s a fine line with [and you don’t want to be too passive, either]. Know when you need to ask for that next opportunity, and don’t be afraid to do it.

And my the number one piece of advice: always, always, always, always, always, always, always negotiate your salary. Always ask for more money. If they tell you the job pays $35,000 a year, ask for $40,000. Because guess what’s going to happen? There’s three things that [could happen], two of them are positive [and one is neutral]. The first one is they can give you the 40 grand. Now you’re $5,000 ahead, or whatever amount you asked for [beyond their original offer]. Second, they could come back somewhere in the middle. So whatever that number is, you’re still ahead. Or they come back and say, “No. This is the salary for this position.” So you’re exactly where you were at. I have never heard of a company pulling an offer from someone when they asked for more money. Obviously, if you ask for a million dollars they might be like, “This person’s an idiot, I’m going to pull that offer.” But I have never heard of someone asking for a reasonable amount of money and the offer being pulled. So two of those are positive, one of those is neutral. So always, always, always ask for more money. That’s my number one piece of advice.

BH: That’s good advice. I like that.

CC: Because young professionals do not negotiate their salaries not only sports organizations, every organization relies on folks not doing that. Do it right away so that way you’re already ahead.

BH: My last question for you Charles – are there any books, podcasts, or other resources that you’d recommend for those who want to stay ahead of the curve on the sports industry?

CC: If I’m saying podcasts, I’m going to say The Guys in the Cheap Seats is the greatest podcast there is. That’s a podcast I host that talks to sports business professionals and gets insights into their careers and experiences. So [be sure to check that one out]. 

But from a sports business standpoint, I think staying on top of all elements of the business [is important]. We’re in a space where your knowledge of your favorite teams and their history and their stats, to be honest, is largely unimportant. You have to be good at the technical job that you want to do. So if I want to work in sports marketing, I better be a good marketer. If I want to work in sports media relations, I better be good at media relations. If I want to work in corporate partnerships for a team, I better have a good understanding of corporate partnerships. Staying on top of those business aspects – the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast is a good podcast for that. I’m a big podcast guy so I listen to a bunch. 

I think the Sportico podcast Sporticast is a good one. Sport Business Radio is another one. Sports Media with Richard Deitsch. Then from a website standpoint or a research source standpoint Forbes has a lot of good articles. Sportico the website has a lot of good content. Front Office Sports has some great content as well. If you can get a subscription to the Sports Business Journal then that provides a lot of value. 

Knowing what’s happening in the greater industry, the more you know about that, the more you’re able to navigate any changes or maybe even foresee some things that other people wouldn’t have. That allows you to capitalize on some of those opportunities. It’s not just about the games. We’re not going to be the players on the field, and for the most part we’re not going to be the coaches on the sideline. We’re “all the work, none of the glory” is what I tell folks. So we’re on that other side of the fence. Having a greater understanding of that part of the industry is really key for folks. I think any of those podcasts or resources will help you stay on top of those.